covert audio in an office environment??, whats your views? Options

[CJTELECTRICAL]

I use to work for a big company local to me, and i found out that there was an audio microphone hidden in the ceiling of the stores/office area. should tis company be allowed to do this? or is this invasion of privacy right for workers. ps there were no signs.??
cheer colin

[Ilkie]

Dear Colin,

In my opinion there are a number of issues here.

Does the company know the device is there?, it could be planted by others.

If the device has been installed by the company, it could be there for a specific investigation which I believe is allowable.

What I think is not allowable is the use of such a device for a permanent deployment, the contravention being of the Human Rights Act expectation of privacy.

However, if the room is open plan there can be no such expectation.

Normally there is a general clause in the company's job description which allow surveillance (ie telephone recording, monitoring of emails and CCTV).

I am sure Mick and Dr Jon may have an opinion (which may not agree with mine!)

Regards

Ilkie

[MichaelC]

Welcome to the forum Colin,

Not much I can add to what Ilkie has posted. Must admit I don't know that much about bugs but I'm sure we know a man who does (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink2.gif)

[CJTELECTRICAL]

i know for a fact that it was put there to hear if anyone was talking about any foreignerss they may have in the stores to the other installers. so its not a camera its audio.
the device was installed by the md of the company so he copuld hear what was been talked about. i know this as i found the device.

[MichaelC]

I'm probably going to wish I hadn't asked this, but what were you doing in the ceiling Colin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Please don't tell me you were fitiing a covert camera but the microphone was in the way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CJTELECTRICAL]

I'm probably going to wish I hadn't asked this, but what were you doing in the ceiling Colin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Please don't tell me you were fitiing a covert camera but the microphone was in the way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i was fitting some new cables for an extra socket in the office and found when i had my head in the ceiling feeding cables round.

[Mick]

Colin - there are many more questions I would like to ask you (some, Ilker has already asked) to clarrify lots of outstanding matters. But on the face of what you have posted here, it does sound like someone has been carrying out a covert audio surveillance operation.



Here is some details on covert surveillance .



What you have described in your question could be a properly authorised legal operation. Or even an illegal operation by a commercial rival / nosey individual / scorned lover etc.



However, if you suspect you employers may have done this for some reasons of their own, it may first be worth you checking your contract to see if anything about staff monitoring, IS included within it. If it isn't and you are confident about taking this matter further, but don't wish to approach your direct line management, you may wish to consider approaching your union representatives and voice your concerns there.



If you have no union representation, you could even speak to the citizens advice bureau.



I would recommend if at all possible, that under normal circumstances within a bona fide commercial operation that this sort of matter should initially taken up with your own internal line management.



Hope this helps.

[CJTELECTRICAL]

[b] Just to clarify firstly; i used to work this company but now i dont
i hjave my own company cjt electrical. which has been going over 1 year now. i wouldnt do anything myself like this in my own company whatever the reasons as i dont condole it.
secondly; i am not going to name the company only will say its one of the bigger ones in the industry.
thirdly; i found this deviced in the office ceiling when installaing a socket in the office area when i worked there NOT as a subby or the like.
fourthly; the company in question had people in to put the device there without people knowing as it leaked out from managment.
and fifthly; i will not be going back to that company so if its still there then thats up to them but i made it quite clear that it was discouvered when i left so it may have been taken out by now
bearing ikn mind that its been 2 and a half years since i worked there.
hope this clarifies information.
all i wanted to know at that time i worked there was it illegal or not??[b]
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

[Ilkie]

System installed by the owner, I'm not a legal eagle but it is difficult to see what law has been broken, so on balance I would say legal (but not necessarily moral!)

Ilkie

[CJTELECTRICAL]

thanks ilkie
i think your right about not being moral. if i found someone putting one of these devices in my business premises tho i wouldnt be a happy bunny as i dont like hidden stuff.
colin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

[Doktor Jon]

System installed by the owner, I'm not a legal eagle but it is difficult to see what law has been broken, so on balance I would say legal (but not necessarily moral!)

Ilkie

I don't profess to be a legal expert on this, but I would tend to agree with Ilkie.

The RIPA 2000 legislation that Mick kindly linked to, only applies to agencies and organisations that are involved in surveillance operations, and does not apply to private premises.

If a company has a right to take reasonable steps in a given situation, and they decree that using covert techniques, both audio and video, is acceptable to them, then the options for challenging it are somewhat limited.

I could imagine that if an individual were subjected to intrusive surveillance, then they could invoke the Data Protection Act, or possibly the Human Rights Act, but the success of any subsequent proceedings would certainly have an uncertain outcome.

It's interesting to consider that had this event happened across the pond in the USA, in certain states the persons responsible would have been arrested, and could be subject to severe penalties (I may be wrong, but I vaguely recall that audio surveillance in some states is considered a felony offence rather than a misdemeanour, with consequently higher penalties).

On a practical point, installing covert microphones isn't necessarily as straightforward as many people imagine, simply because low cost pick ups tend to record everything, so trying to decipher speech when there's other background noises like air conditioning, printers, fax machines etc., can be somewhat challenging to put it mildly.

[Matt the Teckie]

Don't know about the regs but I if I found out that my conversations were being intercepted or my office was bugged, I'd probably go postal and sue the backside off the owner.

How would bugging an office increase security? Sounds like a power-trip thing.

[Doktor Jon]

Don't know about the regs but I if I found out that my conversations were being intercepted or my office was bugged, I'd probably go postal and sue the backside off the owner.

How would bugging an office increase security? Sounds like a power-trip thing.

In general I'd have to agree with you Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

That said, I think ultimately it comes down to whether a surveillance is carried out responsibly.

I have seen situations where 'suspects' have been proven innocent through the use of covert surveillance, without them having any knowledge of what's taken place. Without the covert ops. it is quite likely they could have been arrested on suspicion, and then later released through lack of evidence.

That situation always makes it difficult for me to reach absolute conclusions on the rights and wrongs of covert work, but as I suggested already, it does depend on who is doing it, and how it is done.

[Mick]

Bugging In Not A Crime Say The Experts -



http://www.out-law.com/default.aspx?page=7363

[Matt the Teckie]

That's just scary!!!

[Mr Jeff]

That's just scary!!!

Matt, you had better build a bug detector!

Surprising the number of meetings I now attend where one or more people are recording the converstation, either on their PC or a mini-voice recorder. Sometimes they are open about it, and even ask permission. Other times they record covertly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[MichaelC]

Bugging In Not A Crime Say The Experts -

Interesting that it makes no reference to an individuals rights under the Human Rights Act, where they may be working in a private place, and may have a reasonable expectation of personal privacy.

As for stealing mains electric, how does that work if its your bug and your building? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Matt, you had better build a bug detector!

Surprising the number of meetings I now attend where one or more people are recording the converstation, either on their PC or a mini-voice recorder. Sometimes they are open about it, and even ask permission. Other times they record covertly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Cheeky buggers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Matt the Teckie]

http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/rf/005/index.html

Disturbing how well you know me Mr Jeff!

Here's a quick "did-you-know", an AM radio can be used to sweep for transmitters. Tune your radio to static and move the antenna around the room. The radio picks up the oscillator and presents it as a pulsing sound.

Try it on your TV remote, V. cool

[Mr Jeff]

Here's a quick "did-you-know", an AM radio can be used to sweep for transmitters. Tune your radio to static and move the antenna around the room. The radio picks up the oscillator and presents it as a pulsing sound.

Nice project, unless the mic is direct wired.

I've used the AM radio tickle for fault finding and wire tracing, but some years back. You can get signal tracers that have a very wide range. I can feel a visit to Maplin coming on...