Dome Cameras vs. PTZ, Which is the best solution for moving cameras Options

[Gianni]

I am just wondering which is the best solution for moving a camera: I would be glad to receive your opinion on this.
My idea is that speed domes are the best for indoor applications due to size and aestetic appealing while P&T systems are better for outdoor (wiper, choice of camera/lens, IR option).

Any idea on this? Any troubles encountered on the field? How should the ideal product be (no just cheap)? Which are the parameters you consider when you need a positioning camera?

Kind Regards

Gianni (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[Ilkie]

Dear Gianni,

The key to planning for this type of installation is the size of image required at the furthest distance (from the camera) required by the operational requirement.

I would suggest only consider optical zoom as the digital zoom tends to be less than useful.

Another consideration is the speed of pan and tilt operation. This should be variable speed and the slowest speed is as important as how fast!.

In my experience, the use of mini domes (or camera systems that use similar camera modules) can be considered to be of benefit for internal use or externally for building protection.

Their use in Town Centre Systems is fairly limited.

Hope this helps

Ilkie

[CJTELECTRICAL]

I am just wondering which is the best solution for moving a camera: I would be glad to receive your opinion on this.
My idea is that speed domes are the best for indoor applications due to size and aestetic appealing while P&T systems are better for outdoor (wiper, choice of camera/lens, IR option).

Any idea on this? Any troubles encountered on the field? How should the ideal product be (no just cheap)? Which are the parameters you consider when you need a positioning camera?

Kind Regards

Gianni (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

two thigs here to think about;
with a speed dome they are limited to the type of lens and camera built in to them, they are asthetically pleasing to the eye though, speed domes dont cost as much as pt but are easier to install and less weighty overall, with pan tilt cameras you can change the camera oor lens, add ir lamps wipers and also washer units
so in the rain the camera front can be washed off with the intergrated wiper. indoor is definitley dome i would say. but outdoors is dependable on site conditions and area of coverage.
in my personall opinion i would say domes all the way as to the fact that they are easier to install and quicker in most cases where as pan tils have a lot more cables to connect up, and pt's are generally alot heavier so need a very strong platform/pole to sit on.
one downside to domes tho if mounted on a pole the pole stops a very small amount of the view from camera where as pt's dont have this but pts have a cable that wraps around the bracket/pole/platform so either the cable as to very long or the limit stops have to be setup.
in asnwer to your question tho id still say domes all round.
colin
cjt electrical
cheers

[Matt the Teckie]

Hi Gianni,

This is an age old question.... The answer revolves around what you're particular application requirement is.

The dome camera, as Ilkie and Colin have pointed out, are generally much easier to install. They also have the advantage of cost, variable telemetry protocols (the good ones), aesthetics and ease of install.

For me the chief advantage of a PTZ is the fact that you can tailor the unit to match you exact specifications with regard to zoom scope and camera quality. You can also add extras on there like a spot and flood lamp that points where the camera's looking, wipers, washers etc. Town centres often go for PTZ for these presise reasons coupled with the fact that they're quite overt (the downside of this being that criminals can see which way the camera's pointing). Once installed they also have the advantage of adaptability, if a better camera comes out a year or so after installation, it can quickly and cost effectivly be swapped out and upgraded (same applies to the lens). For me, the biggest disadvantage is that PTZ telemetry receivers appear to be on the decline, limited in their telemetry protocol options and tend to be expensive (especially for DC heads).

Hope this helps

[CJTELECTRICAL]

the one thing i think about ptz's is they look ugly and big and thats what puts alot of people off is their size. the thing with domes is they are very discrete.
ive put domes round our property and people often say to me that they thought they were lights. where as in town centres etc they have said in the past how big and ugly they look.
colin

[Ilkie]

The issue is always performance.

Mini Domes in Town centres will rarely meet the operational requirement and not produce appropriate images.

It is a waste of money to install a system which will not produce the goods! however pretty it looks.

Trouble is we are up against (some) end users how will not appreciate this until it is too late, and then they are unable to admit a mistake (it's too late at this stage anyway)!

I have even experienced end user's who will not install signage as it runs against policy on street clutter.

The security industry is poor at educating the end user as mini dome are quick, easy and cheap to install.

The long term reliability of mini domes is suspect for intensive use and the product life span is too short and probably would not meet the client's expectations on equipment lifespan.

Sorry to jump on my soap box but those they know me in the industry know my opinions regarding the use of mini domes (and systems that use mini dome components) in the public surveillance environment.

Ilkie

[Doktor Jon]

This is a very interesting thread, with some great observations (if you'll pardon the pun) from everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup_anim.gif)

Without wishing to steer it off course I thought I'd quickly throw another couple of considerations into the pot, which actually have absolutely nothing to do with engineering.

In my humble opinion, domes are very good for what they do very well, but on the subject of public space or town centre applications, they are often (but not in every case), the wrong tool for the job.

For situations where the cameras are required to provide some level of deterrence, then domes are intrinsically less capable. The two main reasons being that as they are generally very discreet; that in itself is at odds with the requirement for a high visibilty presence.

Also, certain types of activity, and in particular anti social behaviour (ASB) can often be disuaded by bringing a PTZ camera to bear on the target. If they know they are being watched, an individual is often far less likely to commit an offence in full view of a recording camera.

With a dome it is usually impossible for a casual observer to determine which way it is looking; whilst this is held up by some as a benefit for a dome, in practice I have never been convinced that it is a worthy argument where deterrence is a significant objective for a video surveillance system.

In fact if you ever discuss the issue of staring and threats in the animal kingdom with an experienced zoologist, they will say never look straight at an animal as it is immediately regarded as a threat. That is something you can achieve with a PTZ, but you can't with a dome.

With regards to all the previous pro's and cons for both types, I'd have to agree that domes provide a tidy imaging package, with little option for upgrades and in some cases (particularly external units) a questionable length of service life. PTZ's are often big and cumbersome, but that can be an advantage in certain situations, and they do lend themselves very well to phased upgrading, and more straightforward routine maintenance.

As far as I am concerned, I'd agree with Ilkie's comments, and in particular that mini domes being used in a Town Centre application is a definite no no.

I look forward to reading more thoughts on this subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yes.gif)

[CJTELECTRICAL]

i noticed walking through our town centre today that there were some mark mercer black ornamental looking bracketed domes that were quite big in size but however they have got a baxall or panasonic camera installed and big zoom lens (one was a computar lens)
now i do like that as the black inner wasnt installed as the bubble showed the camera itself and the way it was looking. i have also taken out our black liners of the domes around our house and this is because of a size issue looking at them. but earlier today a group of 20 yobs which were being very noisy went past my dads car and saw the camera looking directly at them and as they walked past they waived at the camera and quitened down a bit.
but in certain circumstances i understand y town centres have the ptz range of cameras.

what do think will be happening in the future as it seems to be revolving around domes and not ptz so much, plus if the telemetry boards and protocols are being phased out what happens then.
a couple of years ago i installed one of those pelco esprit camera ptz that can spin 360 degrees and they were quite good to be honest. but you couldnt change the lens or camera it has to be sent back to pelco for an upgrade or service which is ok if your company carries a spare for replacement but if you havent then the site where this may be installed may not benfit them if they loose that camera ptz for 2 weeks.
cjt

[Ilkie]

This certainly is a problem at my end of the business.

We have just completed our fourth recent town centre installation with 18" domes allowing selection of cameras and lens similar to a shoebox PTZ.

As the mini dome market becomes the mainstream, the kit that supports shoe box PTZ cameras is disappearing from the marketplace.

The range of large lenses, decent 1/2" cameras and pan/tilt heads are becoming part of the specialist market with the major manufacturers no longer including them in their range.

More important, CCTV engineers that understand and have hands on experience of setting up and maintaining such systems are a rare breed and becoming more so.

All part of the dumbing down process that technology can lead to and the eventual absorption of CCTV into the the IT industry (an issue for another thread I think!).

Ilkie

[CJTELECTRICAL]

whats that about ip cctv systems, surely the domes and ptz cameras cant be controlled thru ip addresses can they? does that mean all the town centre equipment and all the other equip[ment in the country would have to be changed in time to ip. im not sure that idea of it going into ip addresses. think i would rather it stick to tru coax and psu type systems. the worlds gone mad. thing is if that happens it will go round in a circle as it inevitably does and go back to coax eventually after manufatrueres find the big mistakes they have made. so i think it will not work perm anyway.
colin

[Ilkie]

PTZs and domes can be controlled by IP (you have to be careful with the design due to latency).

The problem is that IP cameras are not suitable for Town Centre work.

The other main problem is that transmission systems are difficult to obtain to support Ethernet in this environment.

All our system designs have to now allow for video wall displays (recording systems and control systems) of mixtures of analogue video, IP cameras and DVR outputs.

However the future is IP and with it bring the challenge of wide format pictures (16:9) and Hi-def.

Interesting times ahead

Ilkie

[CJTELECTRICAL]

do you think that ip type systems will be able to become the only system installed in time as then all the systems that are in placewould still be wired in coax / beldon etc and not evceryone will want the upheavle of upgrading again.
cjt

[Ilkie]

The bandwidth available for Ethernet over coax or standard twisted pair is unlikely to support high resolution CCTV video any sort of distance.

Early versions of computer network cabling was routed on 50ohm coax (called thin net or cheapernet) allowed up to 5Mb/s.

So in the end it will be Cat5E or Cat6 (or 7?) for shorter runs, plastic fibre or glass fibre optics for anything of any distance.

Ilkie

[Gianni]

More than traditional PTZ, I thought about integrated positioning units where you can have a built-in wiper. Wiper can be useful for city center surveillanve. Additionally some models you can fit IR: using a speed dome for 360°IR coverage you may need 8 pcs of 45° flood illuminators.
Other models you can also fit your own camera/lens combo, not just a block camera.

I see more and more this kind of products for heavier applications.

i noticed walking through our town centre today that there were some mark mercer black ornamental looking bracketed domes that were quite big in size but however they have got a baxall or panasonic camera installed and big zoom lens (one was a computar lens)
now i do like that as the black inner wasnt installed as the bubble showed the camera itself and the way it was looking. i have also taken out our black liners of the domes around our house and this is because of a size issue looking at them. but earlier today a group of 20 yobs which were being very noisy went past my dads car and saw the camera looking directly at them and as they walked past they waived at the camera and quitened down a bit.
but in certain circumstances i understand y town centres have the ptz range of cameras.

what do think will be happening in the future as it seems to be revolving around domes and not ptz so much, plus if the telemetry boards and protocols are being phased out what happens then.
a couple of years ago i installed one of those pelco esprit camera ptz that can spin 360 degrees and they were quite good to be honest. but you couldnt change the lens or camera it has to be sent back to pelco for an upgrade or service which is ok if your company carries a spare for replacement but if you havent then the site where this may be installed may not benfit them if they loose that camera ptz for 2 weeks.
cjt

[MichaelC]

I would suggest only consider optical zoom as the digital zoom tends to be less than useful.

Interesting stuff here,

Just in passing, I was goin to mention that with conventional CCTV, Ilkie is right about the limited benefit of digital zoom.

However, with megapixel cameras becoming more sensitive (and affordable), digital zoom does become a practical consideration in some situations.

Now if they could just make cameras that stream more images per second, at high resolution, with low light capability, we might begin to make some serious progress with outdoor IP Video set ups (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink2.gif)

[Ilkie]

Still got to crack the transmission problem though!

Ilkie