ANPR good or bad Options

[AndyFox]

ok couldn't find a forum for ANPR discussion so thought I would start my own - and hope I don't reply to myself!!

ANPR - good or bad in terms of the technology working to it's maximum perfomcew, anyone with experience?
There aren't that many people doing it either Police or Commerical so do people think it's worth the investment - or a waste of time?

so there you go I started it off

[CJTELECTRICAL]

i actually think its a waste of money
if yoou have a robber or group of robbers what good is a number plate or vehicle if its stolen and then the owner says to the police yes it was reported earlier today. i really think instead of getting number plates the police service and security guards should be doing more to combat crime not act on it as it happens and do nothing in the mean time.

a typical example ive just been and posted a quote in the post box and parked in the shopping cnetre multi storey car park. in the stairwell at one end of ms carpark 6 youths smoking, swearing etc. so i think the good sitizen that i am ill let security know and they record these youths on the very expensive cctv that we as tax payers have paid for. but when i tell them of these youths all i get from them is not our problem were security not police tell them instead.
what a load of b.l.o.s i tell you what is the country coming to. all the security wanted to do was sit on their backside chilling out drinking coffee or tea.
im so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/furious.gif) as i know when these scummy youths who are probably on the doll break into a vehicle the police dont care but when someone speeds at 2mph over the speed limit they are interested. its a joke. yes i think that cctv should be used but the police and security need to more and not sit on their backsides all the time.

thats my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/furious.gif) for the day!
regards
cjt

[Ilkie]

Dear Andy,

Done lots of this and currently a pet subject of mine.

ANPR works very well technically.

ACPO policy is the use of ANPR “Denying Criminals the Use of the Roads”

When used together with intercept teams they can normally fill all of the cells in the area in a morning!

Problems with legislation though, (signage, DPA) etc may be an issue.

Hope this helps!

Ilkie

[kensplace]

Only takes a moment for a thief to change numberplates....

[Matt the Teckie]

I've found a number of ANPR applications in car parking. Many corporate buildings have barriers that allow staff access but either charge or block public access. The database would include the registration plates of vehicles allowed therefore removing the need for complicated and costly "door entry" style card/pin readers. If any of you've visited hospitals recently you'll know how often these system break down.

They're also used to manage taxi and bus lanes. I can see the application of ANPR drifting further into the Access Control Arena especially as the visual verification specification is already becoming important in alarm systems.

[Ilkie]

Dear Matt,

It is not permitted to use ANPR to monitor/enforce Bus lanes, although you are correct in saying that technically it could be done, given an appropriate database.

The regs say that the use of CCTV is is to support the operator and the cameras must be driven by the operator. Even presets are not allowed.

Moving traffic offences are slightly different by should show context, so difficult to automate.

Regulations for the congestion zone (and proposed London emission zone (LEZ) is slightly different)

Ilker

[Matt the Teckie]

What's the London emissions zone?

[Ilkie]

The LEZ (low emissions zone) is the latest idea from Ken.

This will be implemented as a ring of cameras just within the M25 boundary (ANPR) reading every vehicle that enters London and matches their details to the DVLA database to see if the vehicle is a high emissions model (which may normally mean euro III engine or earlier).

If so a thumping great fine (£200 rising to £1,000 per day)

I think the go live date is around 2008 for HGVs & buses and 2010 for minibuses & vans.

Initially it is only looking at commercials but I wouldn't bet any money on cars being included at a later date (estimated 2012).

The aim is for all vehicles to be Euro IV or better by 2012.

Estimated £60m set up costs.

Any comments?

Ilkie

[Matt the Teckie]

I reckon it's a daft idea but agree in priciple. Like the idea that the vehicles pumping the majority of crap into the air should have penalties applied to their owners. However, I've seen plenty of relativly new cars and trucks on the road spewing black smog out of the exhaust pipes too.
Like with CCTV, you can't get a full grasp of the machine's performance and efficiency by just looking at the spec.

[Doktor Jon]

Somebody mention .... Ken (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif)

There you go, I feel so much better now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/no.gif)

No way am I going to comment on the London Congestion Charge, it's just soooo not good for my blood pressure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mr Jeff]

I had a Lexus 450 Hybrid car for a test drive yesterday, very impressive, went like a bloody rocket. Constant instant torque 0-60 in 5 seconds. An absolute beast, but economical too. (emissions 190) Combination of 240 bhp petrol and 190 bhp electric motors and so fast I was actually scared at times, and my normal car is no slouch at 290bhp.

I was most impressed, averaging 38mph in a petrol vehicle.

Now I believe Hybrids are exempt of congestion charges.

J

[Mick]

For a better insight into the police use of ANPR, have a look at this publically available document here -



http://www.acpo.police.uk/policies.asp



ANPR Strategy for the Police Service 2005/2006 - "Denying Criminals the Use of the Road".



(6th document down in the list of ACPO policies).

[MichaelC]

Now I believe Hybrids are exempt of congestion charges.

Apparently so are foreign embassies under the Geneva Convention.

And foreign registered vehicles and cloned cars, and like Dok Jon I'm not a fan of the congestion charge either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/furious.gif)

[baywatch]

We have been installing anpr systems at civic ammenities sites where trade waste is banned.

As well as displaying the number plate on a large sign that flashes up "no trade waste" the software logs the visit.

A frequent visitors report is generated for the operators who then use it to identify individuals bringing trade waste in estate cars etc.

This is proving very effective & they are ordering more systems.

[Mick]

Although totally off thread, the above reminds me of an "Operational Requirement" I heard about 15 years ago (maybe longer), when a (nameless) Local Authority was putting in a bid for some government money to install public space CCTV.

It said in their document that the USERS (Council) would also use the system to monitor their own refuse collectors and street cleaners, ensuring they were complying with council policies and other legal requirements.

Suffice to say the binmen / sweepers got the right hump thinking the council were spying on them.

Now if they had just mentioned staff safety !
We live and learn.

[Doktor Jon]

Suffice to say the binmen / sweepers got the right hump thinking the council were spying on them.

Now if they had just mentioned staff safety !
We live and learn.

Funny you should mention bin men Mick,

I actually supplied a system to a Local Authority over twenty years ago, which was also at a depot filled with binmen and street sweepers.

They weren't really a problem, but the guy's manning the gatehouse most certainly were.

After 15 months of not watching the monitor (singular), during which numerous thefts were reported from the yard, the unions eventually agreed (during one of the most ridiculous meetings I ever had the misfortune to sit through) a very modest pay increase for their three 'security' members, just so that they could switch on the 9 inch Black and White screen, and actually use the equipment.

As they say, you can't please all of the people .....

[Mick]

....................... And to get us back onto the original subject of this thread (ANPR), have a look at this piece of news -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6902543.stm

[Ilkie]

....................... And to get us back onto the original subject of this thread (ANPR), have a look at this piece of news -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6902543.stm

And the madness goes on.......

Ilkie

[Mick]

More on this here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6903902.stm

[Doktor Jon]

Thanks for the links Mick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

This 'political' move isn't actually a great surprise in itself, but then the argument as to why the original Congestion Charge camera systems were not allowed to fulfil an anti terrorism role 'after hours', still remains something of a mystery.

The only obvious problem appears to be that where an attack is being carried out by individuals that have managed to come "under the radar", the vehicles will not be flagged before hand, and so no amount of technology will save the day; although undoubtedly, it can prove invaluable in a forensic surveillance role when persuing 'failed' individuals.

ANPR is undoubtedly an extremely useful tool, if and when it is applied appropriately, but it isn't 100% reliable, and villains are quickly becoming wise to its shortcomings.

What next, covert Infra Red number plates only visible to IR cameras perhaps .... ?