Viewing a public place with domestic system? Options

[mrwayne]

Hi
Before I invest in a CCTV system (& I'll post further, if/when this progresses) I' d like a more secure feeling about the legality of domestic CCTV viewing (in this case) a public footpath in addition to the side of my house.
I've seen opposing views written with equal conviction & I believe DJ is firmly in the "yes you can" camp.

Initially, I'd like to detect vandalism.
I would not be able to view any neighbours properties.
I plan to run 24/7 with fixed but, initially at least, covert cameras.

I've spoken to my local CRO. "Don't waste your money" was his advice & if I record the "public domain" then I'll need the signs, the licence etc &/or "be prepared to be challenged in court".

Any advice, reassurance, pointers for further confirmation would be most welcome!

Thanks

MrWayne

[Doktor Jon]

Hi mrwayne,

Without knowing any specifics about your actual situation, this is my understanding of the law as it stands at the moment, and hopefully if any others can elaborate on this, I'm sure they will do so.

Any domestic / residential use of CCTV is specifically exempt from the Data Protection Act (under Section 36). The use of signage and possible court implications for non compliance, as suggested by your CRO, therefore does not apply in your situation. Also there is no licencing for CCTV systems as such, just notification and compliance with the DPA if it applies in a specific situation.

Now if you are using CCTV to investigate specific criminal activity, that would be permissible within the DPA even if it were applicable (which in your situation it is not); as such, and as a private individual, there is no problem with you using covert CCTV, provided you do not use it in such a way as it might constitute a harassment against any targetted individual, in which case it might be liable to complaint under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

If your proposed cameras are located within your home, or sited off your home (e.g. within a shed, garage, windowbox (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) etc.) then it would be outside of the legislation that covers 'Permitted Development planning rules.

If you are watching an area where an attack has previously been launched / carried out, and you are not intent on targetting any specific (known) individuals, then you should be o.k., but it would be worth making sure that any recordings made are of the highest possible quality, and date / time stamped in line with 'best practice'.

Hope this makes sense ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink2.gif)

[Ilkie]

I rarely meet Police CROs who understand the basics of CCTV or the law surrounding its use.

When will ACPO get their act together and instigate proper training for their officers to enable them to properly advise the public.

There, rant over

Ilkie

[Mick]

I tend to agree with the good Doktors advice, but would also like to point out that the area around Private use of PUBLIC SPACE CCTV is still very VERY cloudy.

You only have to look at Chapter 3 (page 18) of the National CCTV Strategy to see what a mess it is.

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/cctv/cctv048.pdf

Have a look specifically at Section 3.4 / Recommendation 3.2 (on page 20).

I would add one further point to Doktor J's advice.

I note that you are considering COVERT CCTV CAMERA(S).

If any police officer (and I appreciate the CPO has said "Don't Bother") ......................... But if any other police officer (local beat officer / CID etc) has suggested (EVEN HINTED) that you put up Covert CCTV cameras in order to perhaps catch an offender, then please get their advice re possible RIPA implications.

In the early days of CCTV / RIPA, some switched on police officers (perhaps in order to circum-navigate RIPA requirements), would suggest to victims that they set up their own covert CCTV.

They were working on the idea that if the police didn't set it up, then RIPA dosn't even come into play.

However the legal world have been gradually catching onto this tactic, and may make a big thing about RIPA, should any captured images subsequently result in criminal proceedings.

[Doktor Jon]

I tend to agree with the good Doktors advice, but would also like to point out that the area around Private use of PUBLIC SPACE CCTV is still very VERY cloudy.

You only have to look at Chapter 3 (page 18) of the National CCTV Strategy to see what a mess it is.

Have a look specifically at Section 3.4 / Recommendation 3.2 (on page 20).

I note that you are considering COVERT CCTV CAMERA(S).

If any police officer (and I appreciate the CPO has said "Don't Bother") ......................... But if any other police officer (local beat officer / CID etc) has suggested (EVEN HINTED) that you put up Covert CCTV cameras in order to perhaps catch an offender, then please get their advice re possible RIPA implications.

In the early days of CCTV / RIPA, some switched on police officers (perhaps in order to circum-navigate RIPA requirements), would suggest to victims that they set up their own covert CCTV.

They were working on the idea that if the police didn't set it up, then RIPA dosn't even come into play.

However the legal world have been gradually catching onto this tactic, and may make a big thing about RIPA, should any captured images subsequently result in criminal proceedings.

Good points very well made Mick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yes.gif)

The main problem with the powers that be using the term "Private" for CCTV that is operated outside of the local government or law enforcement communities, is that they seem to be totally oblivious to private in the context of domestic or residential use, and to be honest, the 'Strategy' was I believe never intended to address this relatively small sector of a large and growing industry.

At present, the only legislation that equally applies to residential CCTV, is outdated planning legislation, which a significant percentage of local authority planning officers sadly don't seem to understand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

As I understand it, The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA 2000) again does not have any bearing at all on homeowner installed domestic CCTV, although I would agree with you Mick, if any officer were to even gently suggest that the property owner gets them the evidence and then they can deal with it, any legal eagle with half a brain would probably jump on it in court, although as you've pointed out on previous occasions, it would probably be up to the judge on the day to decide whether the challenge was valid or not.
Certainly worth considering though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

The overwhelming impression I get from homeowners with persistant problems (e.g. vandalism, NFH etc.) is that they don't feel that they are getting the support or being taken seriously by their local force. That is obviously a generalisation, but does go some way towards explaining the steady growth in the domestic CCTV market, where ordinary folk increasingly feel they have to obtain their own evidence, not just to prove their situation, but often to disprove counter allegations being made by their problem neighbours (I've lost count over how many e-mails and messages I've received about this).

Perhaps if mrwayne explains a little about the background to his requirements for CCTV, it may put things in some context.

[mrwayne]

Well, first of all, thanks guys for the response!
My specific problem, I believe is quite common, whether my requirements are? Please advise!

The layout of my plot/local area is as follows: (Recently extended)House/1 metre wide walkway/Our fence/Public Footpath/hedge/allotments. One high (4.5m above ground), obscure, window overlooking PFP. (In fact, no window currently, as it's boarded up, having collected a brick last winter.)

Fence panels bordering my plot/PFP are subject to regular damage (e.g. each of the last 3 weekends & winter approaches...), but it's the broken window that concerns me most, because it will ultimately be our bedroom window & I cannot see an alternative to CCTV to detect & ultimately deter interest in it.
I could protect it with a polycarbonate sheet or grill etc. but that doesn't help with detection.

I know no single party is responsible for all the vandalism, because neighbours & I, at different times, have challenged some of them, succesfully via the police, on one occasion.

The lighting is poor alongside my plot, with the nearest streetlight around 20m from the broken window & the next one approx. 60m away & I admit to not having done anything to help that situation, spending most of my 'leisure' time working inside the house.

My plan was (is?) to place 2 cameras, facing each other, in my soffits (about 3m above our ground level, 2.7m above footpath level), positioned so that they view the whole of the walkway alongside the house but also the PFP, as that is where the problems are coming from. Replace the window (toughened outer/laminated inner) & wait for a few months. If all clear, move the cameras to an overt position & use the bedroom.
Therein lies the single concern that I think, scuppers the plan. I can only get the cameras 8.5m apart & even though they wouldn't be visible (initially), I guess they'd require 'Permitted Development' approval?


I have neither requested, nor been given advice from the police about CCTV (other than the aforementioned comments from our CRO).

I am concious of wandering 'off-topic' so I'll perhaps start another elsewhere to discuss the hardware requirements for my situation, provided there's nothing here that screams nooooo!

In the meantime thanks again for your help so far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[Mick]

How regular is the public foot path used ?

If (as PaulDaniels would say) - "not a lot" .......... and at the risk of upsetting the good Doktor J with a non-CCTV proposal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink2.gif) .

Have you considered becoming a Alligator (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



Have alook here for further information.



http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/gating.htm

[mrwayne]

As Paul Daniels wouldn't say "A lot".

A lot of dog walkers, families & (quote from the local beat manager this afternoon) "scrotes on their way home from school" to the (snobbery alert) council estate, athough the worst times are Friday/Saturday evenings when the same school kids are passing again supping their Stellas & WKDs.

There are at least 6 other roads that terminate at the PFP, the residents of which (that live on the end, adjacent to it) suffer in the same way with regards to fencing.

In fairness to the CRO he did mention gating.

Not relevant to this thread but I can feel the rumblings of a groundswell locally, of fed-up residents, so a detection or two might quieten things down.

[MichaelC]

mrwayne,

if there are a number of residents locally that are getting fed up with the problems, would it be worth considering doing something as a group of concernd residents, rather than just doing something on your own (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)